janradder | So I went to see Watchmen.

Before saying anything else, I really liked the opening credit montage and I thought the Dylan song worked well with it. I also thought that Jackie Earle Haley was great as Rorschach (though I must admit, there were a few times I couldn't help but see Moocher from Breaking Away but that had more to do with me than his performance). That said, I was kind of disappointed.

For one thing, after the opening credits, the music really got in the way of the film. There were quite a few sequences that would have had a lot more emotional impact were it not for the soundtrack, which turned them into stylized violence and made me feel like I was watching a bad music video.

As to the violence itself, when I first heard people complain that there was too much of it in the movie my initial reaction was, "But it's a pretty violent and bloody book." Well, it's bloodier and more violent than the book and it gets in the way of the story. While in the book, Rorschach and the Comedian are different from the other masks because how they use violence, in the movie, there is no difference. Everyone is ultra-violent which makes Nite Owl's scene, where he supposedly loses it and pounds the crap out of someone, ineffective since we've already seen him do much worse.

Another problem I had with the movie was that, though it includes a lot from the book (and a lot of it was well done -- Rorschach eating beans in Dan's kitchen, for instance, or the pull back from the blood-spattered smiley face pin), there was quite a bit that seemed unnecessary and did nothing for the film except to allow Snyder to say, "Look -- see? We put in there."

That said, there were things missing which really hurt the film, namely Bernard, the news vendor. One of the biggest problems I had with the film was that I never got a real sense that the Americans and the Soviets were seriously headed toward nuclear war, at least not in how that was affecting the general population. Bernard, as the man on the street, provided that sense (in my opinion). There were also things changed that didn't save any time or exposition (or at least minimal exposition) that either made the story confusing (like how Rorschach is set up in Molock's apartment) or just lost something meaningful (like leaving out Jon's line on Mars about how all life is a miracle, not just Lori's). And I just didn't buy the ending.

Overall, I felt like the movie version of Watchmen was really ham-fisted and clunky and it lost a lot of the subtlety and the heart of the book (and there were some really bad acting performances, to boot -- hello Carla Gugino). It wasn't a bad movie, but it really wasn't a good movie, either, and it frustrated me watching it because I think with a better director, it could have been really great.

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From: (Anonymous)

Get ready for some major sacrilege: though I love a lot of Alan Moore's stuff, Watchmen the comic book left me a little cold. I thought the movie did a great job of translating the book to the screen, and actually even improved on some of it. Jan--I liked the movie ending better than the comic book ending: it made more sense to me that countries would be peaceful to prevent Dr. Manhattan from striking again--that he was up there somewhere ready to punish the earth if they got nasty with each other again. The whole inter-dimensional alien thing from the comic book didn't seem to me to have enough staying power to create a lasting peace. I agree re: music, but only in the sex scene. "Hallelujah" just totally was the wrong song to play at that point. But after reading some negative reviews before seeing the movie, I was pleasantly surprised at the fact that I liked it. I couldn't see recommending it to anyone who isn't a comic book fan, though, because I think it would do nothing at all for them (as opposed to Spider Man II, say, which I think is a great movie, regardless of comic bookiness). I don't really think anyone else could have done a better job of adapting the comic book to the screen. And I think the choices about what to cut were pretty on the mark. It was a pretty long movie already. I didn't mind the acting--the whole thing had a certain artificialness about it (including the sleek visuals and colors, which I liked) and I think the occasionally hokey acting worked fine given that set-up. I do think the best thing about the movie was the sequence in the opening credits. Very cool and creative. Re: the director, I didn't like 300 at all, so I thought this was a much better film and certainly way more ambitious. For a fairly impossible task, I though Zack Snyder did a pretty good job of turning the comic book into cinema. Anyway, just my two cents.

From:

janradder.livejournal.com

I didn't have an opinion about Zack Snyder either way before seeing the movie -- I liked Dawn of the Dead but never saw 300. As to the Doc Manhattan ending vs. the squid, I kind of thought the squid was hokey in the book, so I wasn't married to the idea of it in the movie, but I didn't see why the Soviets wouldn't just go ahead and nuke the U.S. in retaliation anyway, thinking DM's attack was somehow orchestrated by the Americans (or just seeing that as their opening).

As to the length, it was a long movie, though someone pointed out to me that part of that might have been because of Snyder's fondness for slo-mo action.

By the way, I certainly don't think it sacrilege that someone might be left cold by the book or think the movie version was better (and I've read quite a few Alan Moore fans talk about how much they loved the movie,including the ending) but I was wondering if you'd ever re-read Watchmen or just read it the one time. I ask because, though I liked it after reading it the first time, it wasn't until I'd re-read it that I really started to appreciate it. There's so many facets and details that come out each new time you read the book. (I was also wondering who you were, since you'd left the anonymous comment)

From: (Anonymous)

Hey Jan. I'm Ben Fishman. I couldn't figure out what an Open ID was, so I clicked anonymous and then forgot to identify myself in the post until after I posted it. And by then I'd gone on so long I figured I'd be too much of a dork to post again right after and say, "uhhh, it's Ben."

I did read Watchmen (probably your copy) years ago, but maybe not the whole thing. On the first read, I really liked Rorschach, and the rest of it didn't do much for me. The second reading (a few months ago) was better, but again, it just wasn't really my cup of tea. The older I get, the less tolerant I am of work that has lots of extras that may or may not have much to do with the thrust of a story: in Watchmen, I really thought the comic book within the comic book (while interesting in itself) had very little to do with anything that was happening in the rest of the book. And I found the autobiographies and articles (both the Night Owls) felt kind of extraneous as well--interesting enough to read, but ultimately extraneous and distracting from a more interesting main storyline. And that whole device (the scientific articles on telekinesis in Carrie, for example) just feels really dated to me at this point (with the exception of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen III, mentioned below, which is as much an exercise in creative meandering as it is in an actual plot). So that's my beef with the comic: too all over the place (and probably too bleak). I thought it was OK.

Having said that, I'd have to say that I do love Alan Moore. The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (I and III) are the best comics I've ever seen as far as writing and creativity, so Alan Moore rocks as far as I'm concerned. (But I'd warn you away from The Lost Girls--like porn, it gets totally boring and repetitive. And V for Vendetta didn't do much for me either. I'm glad he got away from his 80s/1984 bleak drab thing).

Anyway, I'm meandering. In general I forgive a lot from writing and movies if there's something really awesome to glom onto: in the movie version I'd have to say the opening credits were truly wonderful. In the comic book (and movie), Rorschack's ever-changing mask spots and his prison line "I'm not stuck in here with you, you're stuck in here with me" both fit that category. I guess at 40 years old I'm a lot less patient with meandering in books and film than I was once (despite my meandering e-mails and a tendency to meander in my own writing). So I preferred the movie since it meandered less, and it was exciting to see everybody move around onscreen. All these comic book movies make me feel like my boyhood fantasies (well, way beyond boyhood actually) have been legitimized and almost "literature"-ized, which is a bit of a rush.

From:

janradder.livejournal.com

Hey, Ben. I thought it might be you but I wasn't certain.

I have to say, I really like the meandering parts of Watchmen, in the same way I liked the section about whales in Moby Dick but I don't think they're at all extraneous. There's really a lot of information in them that help drive the story as well as dropping clues about the various characters. I also think a lot of why the book is as important as it is, is because of what it did with comics at the time when no one was doing anything like that. But I can understand not being enamored with it.

As to LoEG, though I know a lot of people love them, I wasn't a big fan. They're fun, but I really didn't think they were Moore's best work. As to the last one, I really hated it (especially the Kerouac section -- I thought that was just horrid). Of his later work, I really loved Promethea, which had similar themes in regards to art and creativity as The Black Dossier did, but done a lot better. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. Also, if you haven't read his work on Swamp Thing, it's some of his best writing. The first few issues alone (where he completely rewrites the character without changing any of the history or continuity) are fantastic, and it just got better as Swamp Thing slowly learns more and more about himself.

From: (Anonymous)

I haven't read Promethea or Swamp Thing--I glanced at them in the comic shop, but decided I had already spent too much money to justify buying more stuff that didn't immediately grab me. I may have been influenced by seeing a guy in his twenties go up to the counter with a giant box full of superhero statuettes that was rung up for $200. And he said, "Yeah, go ahead and place another order for me next week. I haveta cut down a little because I'm getting a divorce, and she wants more money."

For the League, I thought the second series (the Mars storyline) was just not that interesting. The first and third I thought were great. There were bits in the third that actually got me choked up about creativity. I thought the spoof of the Cthulhu books was hilariously written ("What Ho, Gods of the Abyss"). And the Prospero section at the end had some amazing lines, as did the Shakespeare in the beginning. I agree about the Kerouac: it's the only part of the book I didn't read through since I got bored about 5 lines in. However, it was very Beat. Just the worst of Beat.

Great lines:
Shakespeare style:
'Tis said that all men, commoner and King,
Are come into this world 'twixt Pysse and Shytte.

Prospero (about fiction): We are the tales that soothed your infant brow, the roles you wore for childhood's alley-play. Did not your youth, when lust each notion siezed, see paper paramour took oft to bed? When grown to grey responsibility, its disenchantments and diurnal toils, come each day's disappointed end were we not all thy consolation, thy escape?
[to me, this neatly encapsulates what fiction is all about. Life gets stressful or boring, disenchanting, frustrating; but we can always pick up a good read, watch a good movie, and everything's inspiring and exciting again]

Did fictional examples not prevail? Holmes' intellect, the might of Hercules? Our virtues, our intoxicating vice: while fashioning thyself, were these not clay? If we mere insubstantial fancies be, how more so thee, who from us substance stole?
[to me this speaks to how our fictional heroes and kids' play lead to our own morals, our own self-creation, we love the stories and they help to create who we become, help us build our selves, which is a profound thing. It's wild to see this play out with my own son: he's making Star Wars stuff all the time with cut and stapled and magic-markered paper--and he hasn't even seen Star Wars yet.]

(OK, so just the fact that I'm wafting poetic about lines in a comic book is a little "beyond the pale dorkish", but what can I do. We are who we are, I guess.)

I also have to say I was really excited to see the Gollywog. Julia and I saw some Gollywogs at a London Toy Museum and were like "what is that?!!!" I really liked the half-comprehensible speech that the Gollywog in the comic book uses. I'm sure Sekou Sundiata would consign me to the lowest level of Hell for that, but... oh well.

I guess I'm a sucker for crazy word play, and to see it happen in a comic book just blows me away.

Anyway, it's fun writing back and forth. It takes the place of having an actual verbal conversation, since we're thousands of miles away from each other.

From:

janradder.livejournal.com

My feeling about The Black Dossier was that it was ground Moore already covered in Promethea. It deals with artistic creation, the imagination, the afterlife, the spiritual world -- in short, it's sort of like Moore's personal manifesto of what he believes life is. Still, I like what you had to say about the book. It makes me like it a bit more.

I actually haven't bought a comic in years. I get everything from the library now, which, since almost everything is collected in trades, is pretty easy (and then I don't have to wait each month for the next issue). If I did start buying them again, we probably wouldn't have anything left over for the groceries. (I highly recommend checking out Swamp Thing and Promethea by the way. They're both really well written and Promethea does some really amazing things visually)

From: (Anonymous)

I'll see if the library has Promethea. That's how I read the Watchmen recently, by checking it out from the Hudson Valley region inter-library system (it's a pretty cool way that you can get almost anything where all the libraries in our several surrounding counties loan stuff out to each other. You just have to wait a little longer to get the stuff).

You mentioned your kids like superheroes: I recommend you try to check out of the library the book Mythology by Alex Ross. If you haven't seen his work, it's painted superhero stuff, very realistic-looking. The book is an overview of his career, with lots of really great visuals. The written part won't be of interest to the kids, but there are a few sample comic panels that they'll like in addition to just going gaga over the art(there's a good page of the Robin story, unless you don't want them to read about parents dying, although it's not in-depth at all about that, just one panel--same goes for the Batman story, too, though: but it seems like everyone's parents get offed in stories for kids--Harry Potter, James and the Giant Peach, the Lemony Snicket books, etc.). There's an amazing page in Mythology that shows superhero figures that Alex Ross made when he was a kid: they look like he made them out of toilet paper rolls and they are really, really great-looking.

A really good one if you haven't shown it to your kids already is: JLA Secret Origins by Alex Ross and Paul Dini. It's told in a simple way for kids. I avoided the others in this series, though, as I felt my son wouldn't be ready for the subject matter yet (the Captain Marvel book deals with a kid who dies of cancer, etc.). But the JLA one is on the mark for a little boy (again, the Batman one has two panels that touch on the murdered parents thing, but it didn't seem to faze Noah).

-Ben.

From:

janradder.livejournal.com

I'm not a huge fan of Alex Ross just because all of his superheroes look like they're in their fifties (which is because he's modeling them after the sixties prototypes who also looked like they were in their fifties). I did really like Kingdom Come, which he did with Mark Waid, though (and the fact that everyone is n their fifties is appropriate since most of them are supposed to be).

I'll check to see if our library has Mythology, though, since it sound like something my boys would like. They also have a few comics subscriptions from DC. If you don't know about it yet, there's a great series for kids and adults called Bone by Jeff Smith (who also did a three or four issue Captain Marvel series for DC a couple years ago that, if I remember right, is also kid friendly). Though he hasn't read past the first trade, Arie really liked it a lot.